Хэлэлцүүлэг:Арнаут Даниэль

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Арнаут[edit source]

Я по-монгольски писать не умею, прошу прощения.

Имя трубадура стоит поправить. См. ru:Обсуждение:Даниэль, Арнаут.

Transcription[edit source]

Hello. Sorry, i can't write Mongolian.

You should consider correcting the name of the troubadour. It should be Арнаут Даниэль. "Арно" would be the French pronunciation of the name; this troubadour was not from France, but from Provence, which wasn't part of France.

I am not sure about Mongolian, but in Russian both Арно and Арнаут are used; the form, which is more correct, should be preferred.

Thanks for your attention. --Amir E. Aharoni 23:09, 20 Арваннэгдүгээр сар 2008 (UTC)

In Mongolian, like in Russian, names are normally transcribed phonetically. There is usually no way (and no need) to figure out the original spelling from the result. The french spelling is added for that, and because it is the closest match to his Occitan among the big modern languages. Seeing that we even have an Occitan Wikipedia, I've just changed that to {{lang-oc}}, which only differs by an accent. However, I don't know how his name is pronounced in Occitan. Do you? --Latebird (яриа) 23:11, 21 Арваннэгдүгээр сар 2008 (UTC)
I am not an expert in Occitan yet. I am studying it the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.
The closest language to Occitan is not French, but Catalan and in both of them the pronunciation is closer to /arnaut/ than to /arno/. The phonology of ancient Occitan is pretty well known; for an example see the book "An Old Provençal Primer By Nathaniel B. Smith, Thomas Goddard Bergin", ISBN 0824090306. ("Provençal" is on of the names of Occitan; the naming of this language is a controversial issue.) --Amir E. Aharoni 21:39, 24 Арваннэгдүгээр сар 2008 (UTC)
Catalan is not a "big" language, so it doesn't invalidate my argument. But I'll have to leave the decision to the native speakers here. The correct way to do it would be to find Mongolian language literature about him, and use the spelling found there. --Latebird (яриа) 21:19, 25 Арваннэгдүгээр сар 2008 (UTC)
I could, of course, say that Catalan is an official language of Spain and that at least 5 million people speak it, and that these things make this language quite "big", but since when exactly the "size" of a language is an argument at all? :)
If it still doesn't convince you, then the very "big" Spanish language is still closer to Occitan than French (see Encyclopaedia Britannica for example).
If you find Mongolian sources about this poet, then go for the spelling there. Currently this article doesn't cite any sources at all and my impression is that this article was simply translated from the Russian Wikipedia, which used the French transcription. I corrected it there. External Russian sources, as i said, have both Арно and Арнаут, and Арнаут is more correct. --Amir E. Aharoni 22:09, 26 Арваннэгдүгээр сар 2008 (UTC)
I think you're taking my argument out of context and misuse it for a pointless language contest. It was just meant to explain the reasons why I added the french spelling to the article some time ago. If I had been aware of the Occitan Wikipedia back then, I'd probably have used that right away (and I fixed that at the very beginning of this discussion). So let's stick to the actual question at hand and hear what the native speakers think. --Latebird (яриа) 23:23, 26 Арваннэгдүгээр сар 2008 (UTC)
After reading the article on Occitan language and your discussion, I am convinced that the correct pronunciation of the name should be "Арнаут". --ОригМонгол 05:13, 27 Арваннэгдүгээр сар 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that it was necessary to delete the redirect Арно Даниэль, because there may be links to it - not only from the Mongolian Wikipedia, but also from other Wikipedias and from external sites. But do it according to your policies. --Amir E. Aharoni 14:50, 29 Арваннэгдүгээр сар 2008 (UTC)
Yes, redirects from common misspellings should not be deleted. They help people who use the search function but don't know the exact title of the article. The bots updating interwiki links also need them to find the new location. --Latebird (яриа) 20:12, 29 Арваннэгдүгээр сар 2008 (UTC)